The Pens' Management System

meecrofilm
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The Pens' Management System

Postby meecrofilm » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:54 am

Just wondering what everyone here thought about the way the Pens' management is set-up. We're all aware of the GM braintrust, but how much more is there to it? We know the Despres/Lovejoy trade was basically the doing of the Assistant/Associates based off JR's words:
“We had a very, very long meeting this morning and this afternoon because most of these people were here when Ben was here before . . . our guys felt very strong about reacquiring this player.”
http://penguins.nhl.com/club/news.htm?i ... PIT-search

But then this recent Rutherford quote trade made me question even more just how much influence he has (which I did not think was a lot even before I saw it), and who else might be pulling the strings.
“I would expect that that would be criticized,” Rutherford said. “If we had [Christian] Ehrhoff and Letang playing, we could plug Lovejoy and [Ian] Cole where I expected they’d fit. One thing about Lovejoy that I said at the time: This is a trade that over time will not be in our favor. We traded a young player [Simon Despres] for him, but our hockey organization is basically a group of nine people, and [it was clear] the trade was made more for experience, a trade that would give us a better chance in the playoffs.”
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/gene ... 1504090088

So aside from the 4 GMs, who else do we have: Lemieux, Karmanos, Burkle, Morehouse.... should some of those guys even be involved in hockey decisions? I feel like the idea of bringing JR in as a temporary stopgap/mentor (and someone to bridge the gap between the braintrust and other GMs) was noble in theory, but has really turned out more or less to be a sham, and that the Pens Org is suffering from a case of too many cooks in the kitchen right now, and thus, it's hard to break away from the culture they've created.

I'd hope moving forward that once Rutherford leaves the position that the Pens streamline things a bit more, but I'm not holding my breath.

meow
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The Pens' Management System

Postby meow » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:56 am

I don't see a problem with having a group of high hockey intelligence people working together. What's the need to streamline it?

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Postby mikey » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:06 am

Do you have the right nine there? I don't think Burkle and Morehouse, in particular, are involved much in personnel moves other than the big money stuff...stuff where a lot of money moves in or out...and Lemieux never struck me as hands on...

So we have what, Rutherford, Botterill, Guerin, Fitzgerald, Jacques Martin, Karmanos...that's six...then I guess someone like Recchi and/or our head of pro scouting, and then Johnston...?

meecrofilm
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The Pens' Management System

Postby meecrofilm » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:09 am

I don't see a problem with having a group of high hockey intelligence people working together. What's the need to streamline it?
My main concern is that most of the people calling the shots were also around for the Shero era, and I haven't really seen any evidence of the "pander shamelessly to tenured vets, refuse to let youth properly develop" attitude dissipating from the org. Basically, what's the point of bringing in a new GM (and a new one after this) if any of his ideas or philosophies can easily be overruled by a pre-established hivemind?

I'm not saying give unlimited power to one guy, but I do think that number needs to be trimmed a bit. And no, mikey.... that's just pure speculation on my part, and I'm guessing one or two of them probably don't fit..... probably. :P

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The Pens' Management System

Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:24 am

Do you have the right nine there? I don't think Burkle and Morehouse, in particular, are involved much in personnel moves other than the big money stuff...stuff where a lot of money moves in or out...and Lemieux never struck me as hands on...

So we have what, Rutherford, Botterill, Guerin, Fitzgerald, Jacques Martin, Karmanos...that's six...then I guess someone like Recchi and/or our head of pro scouting, and then Johnston...?
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meow
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The Pens' Management System

Postby meow » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:24 am

I don't see a problem with having a group of high hockey intelligence people working together. What's the need to streamline it?
My main concern is that most of the people calling the shots were also around for the Shero era, and I haven't really seen any evidence of the "pander shamelessly to tenured vets, refuse to let youth properly develop" attitude dissipating from the org. Basically, what's the point of bringing in a new GM (and a new one after this) if any of his ideas or philosophies can easily be overruled by a pre-established hivemind?

I'm not saying give unlimited power to one guy, but I do think that number needs to be trimmed a bit. And no, mikey.... that's just pure speculation on my part, and I'm guessing one or two of them probably don't fit..... probably. :P
Rutherford has the final say. That's a pretty big change. How much change can a GM do it a year? He's stuck with some of the vets, he doesn't shamelessly pander to them. And what youth needs to be properly developed, whatever that means. There is no youth in the organization right now.

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The Pens' Management System

Postby meecrofilm » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:48 am

I guess we're pretty much at a stalemate then. I just really get the impression from those quotes that Rutherford was against that trade, and even if he said "no," it was a case of majority rules.

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Postby mikey » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 am

I can see where that interpretation exists...but I didn't quite read it that way myself...

Having a lot of input like this is not uncommon in an organization...even if the titles aren't the same...powers that be sit at a big table and discuss and evaluate and everyone weighs in. Obviously, some have more pull than others, but this is all very normal. It's not like every organization has one guy that sits in a room with a bunch of phones, faxes and a computer and he's the GM and that's it...all high ranking staff will weigh in...ultimately, it's the general manager's job to pull the trigger...I don't doubt that this was the case here...

It's a shame we can't draft that well - or hadn't, that is - that would make everyone's pants fit a little easier with more flexibility...but this is the hand we're dealt right now...

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The Pens' Management System

Postby TheHammer24 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:05 pm

Do you have the right nine there? I don't think Burkle and Morehouse, in particular, are involved much in personnel moves other than the big money stuff...stuff where a lot of money moves in or out...and Lemieux never struck me as hands on...

So we have what, Rutherford, Botterill, Guerin, Fitzgerald, Jacques Martin, Karmanos...that's six...then I guess someone like Recchi and/or our head of pro scouting, and then Johnston...?
Umm -- The three coaches?

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The Pens' Management System

Postby Pitts » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:29 pm

I don't see a problem with having a group of high hockey intelligence people working together. What's the need to streamline it?
Babcock.

Sometimes, I still think Rutherford, the GM "Committee", and Coach Johnson are all aware that they are 1 year band-aids. And quotes like those cited earlier seem to support, or at least give legs, to those thoughts.

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Postby mikey » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:02 pm

Do you have the right nine there? I don't think Burkle and Morehouse, in particular, are involved much in personnel moves other than the big money stuff...stuff where a lot of money moves in or out...and Lemieux never struck me as hands on...

So we have what, Rutherford, Botterill, Guerin, Fitzgerald, Jacques Martin, Karmanos...that's six...then I guess someone like Recchi and/or our head of pro scouting, and then Johnston...?
Umm -- The three coaches?
Johnston would make some sense, as mentioned...I'm not sure how much Tocchet and Agnew would have to do with this process though...it's my understanding that assistant coaches don't weigh in very heavily on personnel decisions...

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The Pens' Management System

Postby Tico Rick » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:30 pm

Do you have the right nine there? I don't think Burkle and Morehouse, in particular, are involved much in personnel moves other than the big money stuff...stuff where a lot of money moves in or out...and Lemieux never struck me as hands on...

So we have what, Rutherford, Botterill, Guerin, Fitzgerald, Jacques Martin, Karmanos...that's six...then I guess someone like Recchi and/or our head of pro scouting, and then Johnston...?
Umm -- The three coaches?
Johnston would make some sense, as mentioned...I'm not sure how much Tocchet and Agnew would have to do with this process though...it's my understanding that assistant coaches don't weigh in very heavily on personnel decisions...
I thought I had heard that Agnew gave the GM committee his insights about Cole.

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The Pens' Management System

Postby meow » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:37 pm

I don't see a problem with having a group of high hockey intelligence people working together. What's the need to streamline it?
Babcock.

Sometimes, I still think Rutherford, the GM "Committee", and Coach Johnson are all aware that they are 1 year band-aids. And quotes like those cited earlier seem to support, or at least give legs, to those thoughts.
I don't believe Babcock will end up here.

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Postby mikey » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:39 pm

Oh yeah, that's not uncommon...if they have a player that someone in the organization is familiar with, they'll ask...that normally extends to players too...they'd ask a player like Paul Martin or whoever..."hey what do you think of Steve Bernier...what was he like in the room...?" etc.

But the ordinary discussion, the roundtable, I don't believe that most assistant coaches are a part of that at the NHL level...and if they are, they don't have much input...

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Postby CBear3 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:48 pm

My main concern is that most of the people calling the shots were also around for the Shero era, and I haven't really seen any evidence of the "pander shamelessly to tenured vets, refuse to let youth properly develop" attitude dissipating from the org. Basically, what's the point of bringing in a new GM (and a new one after this) if any of his ideas or philosophies can easily be overruled by a pre-established hivemind?
This has been my concern since JR and the gang was announced.
66 and RB seemed imply that there needed to be a culture change, that the club needed to hit a mental reset button.

Then they hired GrandDad to babysit four guys who're already firmly entrenched in the organization and part of that culture. :thumbdown:

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Postby MemeMaker » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:45 pm

begs the question of how many of these hold-overs will be shown the door in the off-season?

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Postby meow » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:52 pm

Image

Pitts
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Postby Pitts » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:21 pm

I don't see a problem with having a group of high hockey intelligence people working together. What's the need to streamline it?
Babcock.

Sometimes, I still think Rutherford, the GM "Committee", and Coach Johnson are all aware that they are 1 year band-aids. And quotes like those cited earlier seem to support, or at least give legs, to those thoughts.
I don't believe Babcock will end up here.
I don't really either. But, I wonder if the Pens think so.

I think Toronto has their sights aimed that way, and possibly Philly. Which, I think the latter would suck.

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The Pens' Management System

Postby the wicked child » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:28 pm

Yeah, I have a feeling that another team is going to dump a boatload of cash on him... more than the Pens are going to be able/willing to pay, especially since they would then also be paying Johnston for 2 more years on top of everything... and the Pens aren't really in a position where passing up that dump truck of money is somehow going to be enticing.

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Postby Morkle » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:28 pm

Babcock will sign with Toronto, they have unlimited cash to spend on a coach like that. He's coming out at the perfect time.

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Postby Avyran » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:32 pm

Babcock will sign with Toronto, they have unlimited cash to spend on a coach like that. He's coming out at the perfect time.
If they got McDavid + Babcock... the media frenzy would be absurd.

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Postby Pitts » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:00 pm

McDavid is Buffalo's!!! He better be. That's where he belongs and Buffalo deserves it.

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Postby Craig » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:57 pm

If babcock went to philly for any amount of money i would be shocked. I cant imagine how that organization would look remotely desirable to any eastablished coach.

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Postby Morkle » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:56 pm

McDavid is Buffalo's!!! He better be. That's where he belongs and Buffalo deserves it.
I don't think any team deserves a player when they tank for it. Yes, that's knowing who the Pens have had over the years.

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The Pens' Management System

Postby Sarcastic » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:19 am

Just wondering what everyone here thought about the way the Pens' management is set-up. We're all aware of the GM braintrust, but how much more is there to it? We know the Despres/Lovejoy trade was basically the doing of the Assistant/Associates based off JR's words:
“We had a very, very long meeting this morning and this afternoon because most of these people were here when Ben was here before . . . our guys felt very strong about reacquiring this player.”
http://penguins.nhl.com/club/news.htm?i ... PIT-search

But then this recent Rutherford quote trade made me question even more just how much influence he has (which I did not think was a lot even before I saw it), and who else might be pulling the strings.
“I would expect that that would be criticized,” Rutherford said. “If we had [Christian] Ehrhoff and Letang playing, we could plug Lovejoy and [Ian] Cole where I expected they’d fit. One thing about Lovejoy that I said at the time: This is a trade that over time will not be in our favor. We traded a young player [Simon Despres] for him, but our hockey organization is basically a group of nine people, and [it was clear] the trade was made more for experience, a trade that would give us a better chance in the playoffs.”
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/gene ... 1504090088

So aside from the 4 GMs, who else do we have: Lemieux, Karmanos, Burkle, Morehouse.... should some of those guys even be involved in hockey decisions? I feel like the idea of bringing JR in as a temporary stopgap/mentor (and someone to bridge the gap between the braintrust and other GMs) was noble in theory, but has really turned out more or less to be a sham, and that the Pens Org is suffering from a case of too many cooks in the kitchen right now, and thus, it's hard to break away from the culture they've created.

I'd hope moving forward that once Rutherford leaves the position that the Pens streamline things a bit more, but I'm not holding my breath.
This article has me throwing my arms in the air. What is it with this family setup in Pittsburgh? So Lovejoy was here before (as a 7th defenseman, mind you). So what. They felt strongly about getting him back. Why. He sucked then and apparently sucks now. Those people, all 9 of them, don't know how to evaluate talent. I am so not surprised the team is where it is.

Also, one thing I remember reading on the Hurricanes forum this summer was how Rutherford traded all their youth/future away. Look at us. If not for the great first month, we'd be out of the playoffs already. No #1 pick if we do miss the playoffs. JR traded pick 2 and 4 for Winnik, a huge overpayment. You don't make moves like Lovejoy and Winnik unless you're among serious contenders, which we're not. This whole season turned into crap quickly and I personally thank the 9 managers for the huge SUCK.

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