NBA

[LITT]

derp x2

[willeyeam]

I'd be inclined to say this series has a "let em play" style to it also. Not that one series = best player ever but what Bron is doing is just nuts

[NAN]

I keep forgetting that's canaan.

[shmenguin]

the current batch of crybabies is a result of the culture - not the individual. plop lebron into the 80's and he wouldn't be waving his arms to the ref after every shot attempt

[shmenguin]

It was a much more physical "let em play" style. of basketball. I would love to see lebron battle in that league style.

i see what you're saying, but aside from shaq in his prime, lebron might be the most physically gifted player in league history. top 3 at least. so if you put a physical freak into a physical league...i think it would turn out ok.

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

I just looked and apparently Lebron already has more career assists (in both reg season and playoffs) than Jordan.

You can't compare the two in pure scoring, Jordan has Lebron beat in that. But in all around game it's a lot closer.

I didn't watch any Jordan because I was too young, but could Jordan guard centers and power forwards? (legitimate question, I really don't know)

that (the ability to guard every position) and his power point guard abilities are Lebron's greatest strengths. He'll never be as good as a scorer as Jordan but doesn't need to be.

[LITT]

really the best way to benchmark performance is with PER. it weights the good (pts assists steals etc) and the bad (TO fouls missed fgs etc). the gap between mj and lebron in terms of PER is shrinking rapidly

[willeyeam]

PER has Chris Paul as the 6th best player of all time

[LITT]

are you saying he's not?

[willeyeam]

umm are you saying he is?

[willeyeam]

I don't think Chris Paul is in the top 6 of active players let alone the history of the NBA and ABA

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

Kobe's 20th pop

[malkintent]

I'd be inclined to say this series has a "let em play" style to it also. Not that one series = best player ever but what Bron is doing is just nuts

no doubt hes having an incredible finals and i agree that it is a more physical series than what im used to seeing lately. its been great theater.

[count2infinity]

Jordan has a far superior jump shot to Lebron, Lebron I think is a more physically gifted athlete. It's definitely difficult to truly compare the two.

[Staggy]

If CLE were to win this series lebron is the best basketball player of all time

Your brain is dented.

What's the problem here slappydappy?

Lebron maybe passes Kobe with a series win. Hed be in the top 5/10. Maybe by the end of his career? i can buy having that conversation then, but now its just an exercise in TNT game night circlejerkery. Basically, you are on the same talking level as charles barkley, reggie miller, and whatever dungheap former fab 5 member they can yank from a crack cocaine binge long enough to record a tugfest on television.

LeBron vaulted past Kobe two years ago. 4 to 1 in terms of regular season MVPs, they both have 2 Finals MVPs. Kobe does have 5 championships but he had Peak Shaq for 3 of them. In his prime Kobe was a devastating scorer who led undermanned teams to the lottery or first round exits. In his prime LeBron could drag poor Cleveland teams to 55+ wins. As of this very moment I have Kobe somewhere towards the bottom of the top 10 and LeBron making a case for top 5.

My hierarchy goes MJ, then some order of Russell, Kareem, LeBron, Magic, Bird, and Wilt. I don't like the idea of judging someone based solely off whether they win or not but beating Golden State with this Cleveland team would be such a momentous accomplishment I might vault him to the top of that second tier.

[malkintent]

LeBron vaulted past Kobe two years ago. 4 to 1 in terms of regular season MVPs, they both have 2 Finals MVPs. Kobe does have 5 championships but he had Peak Shaq for 3 of them. In his prime Kobe was a devastating scorer who led undermanned teams to the lottery or first round exits. In his prime LeBron could drag poor Cleveland teams to 55+ wins. As of this very moment I have Kobe somewhere towards the bottom of the top 10 and LeBron making a case for top 5.

thats valid. At the end of Lebrons career, he will be ahead of Kobe, without question. I think they are comparable from a statistical standpoint and your points make sense. Kobe has the edge, at this point, in a couple of categories not mentioned:

All-NBA teams (kobe 15, lebron 11)
All-NBA first teams (kobe 11, lebron 9)
All-Defensive teams (kobe 12, lebron 6)
All-Defensive first teams (kobe 9, lebron 5)
All-Star Selections (kobe 17, lebron 11)
Scoring Leader (kobe 2, lebron 1)

and, like i said, at the end of his career, hell be ahead of kobe in a bunch of these categories (at least the offensive/all-star/all-nba), but at this team they are in the same ballpark.

[malkintent]

I keep forgetting that's canaan.

ill never forget you suck

[Craig]

Did you change youre username because your name is way too close to including "nan"

[shmenguin]

LeBron vaulted past Kobe two years ago. 4 to 1 in terms of regular season MVPs, they both have 2 Finals MVPs. Kobe does have 5 championships but he had Peak Shaq for 3 of them. In his prime Kobe was a devastating scorer who led undermanned teams to the lottery or first round exits. In his prime LeBron could drag poor Cleveland teams to 55+ wins. As of this very moment I have Kobe somewhere towards the bottom of the top 10 and LeBron making a case for top 5.

thats valid. At the end of Lebrons career, he will be ahead of Kobe, without question. I think they are comparable from a statistical standpoint and your points make sense. Kobe has the edge, at this point, in a couple of categories not mentioned:

All-NBA teams (kobe 15, lebron 11)
All-NBA first teams (kobe 11, lebron 9)
All-Defensive teams (kobe 12, lebron 6)
All-Defensive first teams (kobe 9, lebron 5)
All-Star Selections (kobe 17, lebron 11)
Scoring Leader (kobe 2, lebron 1)

and, like i said, at the end of his career, hell be ahead of kobe in a bunch of these categories (at least the offensive/all-star/all-nba), but at this team they are in the same ballpark.

kobe put up his numbers during the largest talent drought the NBA has seen in decades - maybe ever. every achievement he had was made easier in that context. nothing against kobe. he is what you say he is. but it does narrow the gap between them, IMO.

[NAN]

Did you change youre username because your name is way too close to including "nan"

He changed from one crappy one to another.

[Craig]

Your not youre, idoit!

[slappybrown]

If CLE were to win this series lebron is the best basketball player of all time

Your brain is dented.

What's the problem here slappydappy?

Lebron maybe passes Kobe with a series win. Hed be in the top 5/10. Maybe by the end of his career? i can buy having that conversation then, but now its just an exercise in TNT game night circlejerkery. Basically, you are on the same talking level as charles barkley, reggie miller, and whatever dungheap former fab 5 member they can yank from a crack cocaine binge long enough to record a tugfest on television.

Obviously a tad hyperbolic, but sure, let's presume he continues to play at the same level for the next 3-4 years for purposes of this discussion.

And just to clarify here, Kobe is my favorite player of all time. For example, he should have 3 MVPs instead of 1 IMO. MIMH's Kobe-bashing is foremost amongst his sins.

Also, I have no idea what Barkley, Miller, or any other talking heads are saying about the series because I watch none of the pre-, post-, or halftime shows. Frankly, I would have assumed those guys would stumping for their era and the notion that back then things were different and Lebron wouldn't be able to do XYZ because back then Oak would shiv you on the blocks.

I'm watching what is happening, and if they win a title with this team against what is one of the best teams in recent times -- the Warriors are genuinely outstanding in nearly all facets -- its an enormous accomplishment. I'm not a "whoever has the most titles is the best player" guy -- eg, Dan Marino was a better QB than Tom Brady -- but a Finals win here would be outlandish given Love/Irving and the rest of the team they're running out there. This is the 5th straight Finals he's been to! Crazy stuff in the modern NBA.

Top 5-10 is some mix of MJ, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Kobe, Shaq, Kareem? I think he's in that mix. If you have some of those other guys in front of him, its fine, they are all amazing. But this isn't a crack-induced conversation to be having.

[slappybrown]

Out of curiosity... in MJ's days were there any players built like Lebron is built and have his athletic presence? I suppose when I look back at MJ's days they were mostly lankey. Was it maybe just the clothing that made it look that way? I think if you take today's Lebron and put him back in MJ's day, he dominates even more than he is now just because of the power he has. At the same time, the entire league has likely followed suit and gotten bigger, more athletic and more powerful, so that again go with trying to compare players to other time eras.

i had this conversation two days ago, actually. the prevailing point is that lebron's speed and passing would dominate, but his crybaby attitude would get him a terrible reputation (worse than today's game)...the rules, style of play, and referee conduct is a completely different animal today. If MJ was playing today, he would be at the line 40 times a game. Bill Laimbeer would foul out in the first quarter. It was a much more physical "let em play" style. of basketball. I would love to see lebron battle in that league style.

lol @ crybaby attitude. "SHOCK HORRORSHOW, STAR IN MAJOR SPORT COMPLAINS ABOUT CALLS AND WORKS REFS, FILM AT ELEVEN!" Come on dude.

"It was a much more physical "let em play" style. of basketball. I would love to see lebron battle in that league style."

I think you're watching it, at least games 2-4. Name me a 6'8" 260lb point forward who can play every position, score like MJ, pass like Magic, and defend whoever he wants at the other end that played in the 80s and 90s. Magic is the closest analogue but he could never fill it like LBJ (nor was that his game).

[shafnutz05]

I've realized slappy has a fetish for sports heels. Johnny Manziel, Lebron James, Floyd Mayweather, Ted Dibiase....am I missing any?

[Troy Loney]

How is Lebron a sports heel?