Education talk

[MWB]

So many different avenues to learn things, it's foolish to shut some down. And when you've got the same goal at the end for everyone (pass a multiple choice test), there's even less variety.

[count2infinity]

Art/music past 7th grade was a complete waste for me. I had journalism as an outlet though.

I think the first sentence is what most law makers and school boards are thinking right now, but everyone needs an outlet of some sort. Somewhere to be creative.

[dodint]

That's fine. But it shouldn't be compulsory. Taking a second foreign language would've been much more fulfilling for me than taking art in 11th grade.

[Freddy Rumsen]

We didn't even have a foreign language at the high school I graduated from. If you wanted to learn one they had a lady who would put the VHS tapes in and proctor the exams.

[columbia]

That's fine. But it shouldn't be compulsory. Taking a second foreign language would've been much more fulfilling for me than taking art in 11th grade.

I fully agree with this. I took Latin and German in HS, but am glad that other kids had the opportunity to take art or metal shop (\\m//), etc. if they wanted to.

[count2infinity]

I don't think anyone here is arguing it should be compulsory...

[MWB]

No, not compulsory, just that the opportunities should exist and the thought process shouldn't be as narrow as it is for policy makers.

[dodint]

Well, it was compulsory for me and even though it was 14 years ago it still annoys me. My wife got a lot out of it though. I took Latin, would've liked to have added German. Probably should have just taken it instead of Latin. Alas.

[Freddy Rumsen]

I think Latin should be compulsory.

It s the foundation for every romantic language, also Latin is a great way to introduce people to the Classics and was central to Western educational models for 2,000 years.

[count2infinity]

The "when am I ever going to need this in real life" or "why should I be here, I'm getting nothing out of this" students were always the biggest pain in the asses, it's not wonder dodint was one of them.

[columbia]

The "when am I ever going to need this in real life" or "why should I be here, I'm getting nothing out of this" students were always the biggest pain in the asses, it's not wonder dodint was one of them.

Not commenting on the last part, I knew someone in college, who started when he was about 25. He was always dodinting about having to take literature, philosophy, foreign language, etc. Maybe he should have chosen a different college?

[Pavel Bure]

That's fine. But it shouldn't be compulsory. Taking a second foreign language would've been much more fulfilling for me than taking art in 11th grade.

It was required to take 3 years of a language where I went to HS.

[shmenguin]

The "when am I ever going to need this in real life" or "why should I be here, I'm getting nothing out of this" students were always the biggest pain in the asses, it's not wonder dodint was one of them.

The less practical the subject matter, the more I enjoyed it.

Did you get tempted to tell them that almost nothing they learn in school has any practical, direct value?

[count2infinity]

I often just told them that there are many things in life that they're not going to want to do, but they're just going to have to do or there are severe consequences (taxes, car insurance, hoops to jump through at work, etc). If that didn't work then it was "quit whining, no one likes a whiner". I actually had a pretty good relationship with most of my students and for the most part they all enjoyed my class, so I never really got much complaining.

[shmenguin]

I often just told them that there are many things in life that they're not going to want to do, but they're just going to have to do or there are severe consequences (taxes, car insurance, hoops to jump through at work, etc). If that didn't work then it was "quit whining, no one likes a whiner". I actually had a pretty good relationship with most of my students and for the most part they all enjoyed my class, so I never really got much complaining.

My interpretation was always that those courses were training my brain for the real world. Looking back, I think that was true.

[MWB]

I think Latin should be compulsory.

It s the foundation for every romantic language, also Latin is a great way to introduce people to the Classics and was central to Western educational models for 2,000 years.

My first teaching job was teaching a class called Phenomenon of Language to 6th graders. Basically and intro to Latin with a lot of stems. I hated it. That said, the concept was good.

[dodint]

That's fine. But it shouldn't be compulsory. Taking a second foreign language would've been much more fulfilling for me than taking art in 11th grade.

It was required to take 3 years of a language where I went to HS.

I took Latin through high school. PA Junior Classical League represent.

[MWB]

Testing starts this week! Bubble sheets, stressed out kids, annoyed teachers, malfunctioning computers... Yup, this is definitely a healthy learning environment.

[MWB]

All education should be handled at the County level at the highest.

There are folks on this thread who were educated in public schools before there was a Dept. of Education and in every measurable metric we are worse off in K-12 since it was Federalized.

I agree that education should primarily be handled locally. There are problems with that, but not as many as there are when things are done federally.

As for the second statement, the media has done a great job of making things out to be awful, awful, awful since the good ol days. Not really true.

[Freddy Rumsen]

All education should be handled at the County level at the highest.

There are folks on this thread who were educated in public schools before there was a Dept. of Education and in every measurable metric we are worse off in K-12 since it was Federalized.

I agree that education should primarily be handled locally. There are problems with that, but not as many as there are when things are done federally.

As for the second statement, the media has done a great job of making things out to be awful, awful, awful since the good ol days. Not really true.

My evidence is more empirical than media based. (Not off man on the street interviews either).

[count2infinity]

I could be completely wrong (in other words, I have no evidence to back this up), but I think youth is just as, if not more educated than generations past, it's just other countries have excelled beyond our pace of educational advancement.

[MWB]

All education should be handled at the County level at the highest.

There are folks on this thread who were educated in public schools before there was a Dept. of Education and in every measurable metric we are worse off in K-12 since it was Federalized.

I agree that education should primarily be handled locally. There are problems with that, but not as many as there are when things are done federally.

As for the second statement, the media has done a great job of making things out to be awful, awful, awful since the good ol days. Not really true.

My evidence is more empirical than media based. (Not off man on the street interviews either).

The stats presented are often incomplete and skewed to "the sky is falling" side of things.

[Freddy Rumsen]

I could be completely wrong (in other words, I have no evidence to back this up), but I think youth is just as, if not more educated than generations past, it's just other countries have excelled beyond our pace of educational advancement.

"Educated" is a subjective thing of course and a lot of it depends on what your goals are in education.

Are kids today provided with more information? Maybe. But I would even demur from that.

Were generations taught how to learn and reason (in a philosophical sense) better in previous decades? Without doubt.


This is anecdotal, but in my line of work when a student came to the post-college graduate level he/she was expected to already know Latin and Greek and have a working knowledge of the Western philosophical tradition from Socrates to present. Today you'd be hard pressed to find more than a handful of an incoming class of 50 that had half of that before matriculation.

[Reveutopique]

Oh shoot, i think i posted about education in the politics thread. Should I post it here and then you guys delete it on there? Or you guys could give me loads of power and I can do it.

[count2infinity]

"Educated" is a subjective thing of course and a lot of it depends on what your goals are in education.

Absolutely agree.

Are kids today provided with more information? Maybe. But I would even demur from that.

They are definitely provided with more information and are forced to learn more information than in the past.

Were generations taught how to learn and reason (in a philosophical sense) better in previous decades? Without doubt.

I think this is more an issue of "teaching to the test" rather than actually teaching, and with that I agree. Many students aren't taught how to learn, they're taught how to take a test. It's about getting the right answer rather than knowing how to get/know the right answer.

This is anecdotal, but in my line of work when a student came to the post-college graduate level he/she was expected to already know Latin and Greek and have a working knowledge of the Western philosophical tradition from Socrates to present. Today you'd be hard pressed to find more than a handful of an incoming class of 50 that had half of that before matriculation.

I have no working knowledge about this... I'd imaging that times are changing as far as what students should know in your line of work. I certainly wouldn't want a chemist coming into grad school knowing what they knew 50 years ago and not anything since then.