Education talk

[Freddy Rumsen]

I think the problems we have in education today are more goal problems (testing) than endemic to the system qua system per se.

For me as a parent I am far more interested in my children learning how to learn than to just regurgitate facts.

(In my line of work one is expected to translate from Hebrew and Greek regularly, and knowing Latin sure helps in reading older books when it was the Lingua Franca. So in the past more instruction time could be spent on other things, but is now taken up on what previous generations referred to as remedial training).

[count2infinity]

I certainly agree with your first two lines there... I remember that students were fine when I'd give them step by step labs and have them report what happened. When I'd give them a problem that they had to make their own steps and develop their own lab to find the answer, they struggled mightily, even with google at their hands.

[Reveutopique]

Ohhh like when the teacher wants to see you do the work out and you get 90% of the points even if you get the answer wrong?

I loved those math classes!!!!

I'm for this.

So are you saying we should do away with standardized testing?

[count2infinity]

So are you saying we should do away with standardized testing?

The way it's set up currently? Yes.

[Reveutopique]

I really like the way AP exams are set up. But I hated the regents and stuff (does PA etc have those? ). I did well on them but I felt like any time we got into something the teacher would have to move on for the sake of the regents.

Also
I'm assuming I shouldn't repost my post on here since you guys are ignoring it. Although it's all anecdotal anyway.

[Reveutopique]

Starting work on my MBA on Thursday, little nervous.

Can I ask you some qusetions?

How's it going so far? What are you studying? What is it like? What's your average day like?

[Freddy Rumsen]

So are you saying we should do away with standardized testing?

The way it's set up currently? Yes.

Absolutely.

Mississippi has this draconian reading test that is pass or fail in 3rd grade. The teachers loathe it with the power of a thousand suns.

My daughter passed it, but there were kids in her class vomiting in the middle of it they were so nervous.

That is insane.

[Reveutopique]

So are you saying we should do away with standardized testing?

The way it's set up currently? Yes.

Absolutely.

Mississippi has this draconian reading test that is pass or fail in 3rd grade. The teachers loathe it with the power of a thousand suns.

My daughter passed it, but there were kids in her class vomiting in the middle of it they were so nervous.

That is insane.

Omg wtf. 3rd graders are so adorable why would you do that to them? !

[count2infinity]

I don't think standardized tests should start until 8th grade. At that point there should be tests that students are required to pass before graduating high school:

Algebra I, Physical Science (combo of intro to chem and physics), 10th Grade level grammar, Writing, and American History

Then a choice of at least 5 of the following 9:

Geometry/Trig, Biology, Literature, World History, Geography, Music and Art, American Politics, Business and finance, and computer literacy.

These tests would happen at the the end of that particular course, and from there, local school districts should be allowed to set the standards for graduation.

It's sort of a combo of common core (everyone should learn the same things) and there are still "standardized" tests for accountability.

[MWB]

So are you saying we should do away with standardized testing?

The way it's set up currently? Yes.

Absolutely.

Mississippi has this draconian reading test that is pass or fail in 3rd grade. The teachers loathe it with the power of a thousand suns.

My daughter passed it, but there were kids in her class vomiting in the middle of it they were so nervous.

That is insane.

It is absolutely insane. Here, if the 3rd grader fails it, they get to take two more tests to try to pass it. If not, summer school.

I had a kid this year who finally started liking reading. He started reading books and was interested for the first time, as a fifth grader. Showed greater understating and could discuss in depth. Took this test and didn't pass. I could care less if he passed it, because he grew as a reader. The evaluation system doesn't see it that way.

[MWB]

if you really want to know what a kid knows, make the test open ended questions.

[MWB]

Reveutopique, not really sure what you mean in the political thread by national level charters. The best private schools are the best because of the students that go there. Many of the best charters are good because they are selective. Public schools can't be selective.

I completely agree with you about teachers. Some just need to get out. Teachers need to be properly trained and evaluated, and it shouldn't be a job for life just because. Unfortunate, the spark that you talk about in some teachers gets hacked away by the crazy requirements.

[Pavel Bure]

Starting work on my MBA on Thursday, little nervous.

Can I ask you some qusetions?

How's it going so far? What are you studying? What is it like? What's your average day like?

Doublewinder? Anyway it's going well. The classes are only 5 weeks long so it's quite a bit of work crammed into one class but I'm handling it well. My first class deals with accounting and quite frankly I cannot wait to be finished with it. I'm sick and tired of this side balancing that side and when they don't going over the numbers multiple times and not being able to figure out why. Still I have the 3rd highest grade in the class and haven't put in a ton of effort.

After my undergrad and realizing how little GPA matters I'm not stressing myself out over any of this. B's or better and I'm happy especially because I don't have to try in order to get B's.

[Reveutopique]

Starting work on my MBA on Thursday, little nervous.

Can I ask you some qusetions?

How's it going so far? What are you studying? What is it like? What's your average day like?

Doublewinder? Anyway it's going well. The classes are only 5 weeks long so it's quite a bit of work crammed into one class but I'm handling it well. My first class deals with accounting and quite frankly I cannot wait to be finished with it. I'm sick and tired of this side balancing that side and when they don't going over the numbers multiple times and not being able to figure out why. Still I have the 3rd highest grade in the class and haven't put in a ton of effort.

After my undergrad and realizing how little GPA matters I'm not stressing myself out over any of this. B's or better and I'm happy especially because I don't have to try in order to get B's.

Oh, ok, Thankyou for your answer.

I wanted to know bc I am studying for my GMAT. Except Im starting at the very basic level...like I'm states away from the actual gmat. However, there's so much i need to do before I go for my MBA I wondered what the experience is like.

[shmenguin]

I could be completely wrong (in other words, I have no evidence to back this up), but I think youth is just as, if not more educated than generations past, it's just other countries have excelled beyond our pace of educational advancement.

"Educated" is a subjective thing of course and a lot of it depends on what your goals are in education.

Are kids today provided with more information? Maybe. But I would even demur from that.

Were generations taught how to learn and reason (in a philosophical sense) better in previous decades? Without doubt.


This is anecdotal, but in my line of work when a student came to the post-college graduate level he/she was expected to already know Latin and Greek and have a working knowledge of the Western philosophical tradition from Socrates to present. Today you'd be hard pressed to find more than a handful of an incoming class of 50 that had half of that before matriculation.

yet the IQ of every generation since studies began in the 30's has been higher than the generation that came before it. people are becoming more intelligent, despite whatever educational flaws exist.

and maybe past generations were "taught how to learn and reason (in a philosophical sense) better in previous decades", but did they apply that teaching better? i have doubts. plenty of them.

[MWB]

What does "failing schools" mean?

[Reveutopique]

Reveutopique, not really sure what you mean in the political thread by national level charters. The best private schools are the best because of the students that go there. Many of the best charters are good because they are selective. Public schools can't be selective.

I completely agree with you about teachers. Some just need to get out. Teachers need to be properly trained and evaluated, and it shouldn't be a job for life just because. Unfortunate, the spark that you talk about in some teachers gets hacked away by the crazy requirements.

Yeah I know. It's sad. Some teachers get very frustrated with all the restraints.

I am not sure about nation wide charter schools but I know that the ones in nyc are mostly done by lottery bc of the amount of kids hoping to get in.

I think to say that private schools are so great because of the students. ..idk if I agree with that and wouldn't know how to quantify that without experimenting...?
Not sure what to say there other than I think the objective, for me, would be to get all kids to the university level, focused on something.
Whether they are the best isn't really important to me and I don't believe it should be for them except with regard to themselves.

I just care that they are spending their youth stimulated, and excited to learn.

The onus is not on the child to get excited about something he doesn't care for. It is the school's job to teach the student and inspire him. It is the student's job to learn the material and think about applying it with the help of the teacher. I guess that's vague but it's basic.

That's not really how it was growing up.
But I truly think we would benefit if it were that way.

[shmenguin]

I think to say that private schools are so great because of the students. ..idk if I agree with that and wouldn't know how to quantify that without experimenting...?

wealthier parents=better students=better schools. there's plenty of data to back this up.

[Reveutopique]

I think to say that private schools are so great because of the students. ..idk if I agree with that and wouldn't know how to quantify that without experimenting...?

wealthier parents=better students=better schools. there's plenty of data to back this up.

Ohh in that sense yes. I read it as if he was saying the kids in private school are smarter, which, now that I think about seems ridiculous.

[count2infinity]

Private schools are most certainly better because they have better students. Not necessarily more skilled students, but better students. Private schools can just look at a student and say "buh bye" and kick them out the front door never to return. Parents pay money for the students to be there and thus the parents actually care about their education. I'd say 70% of whether a kid gets a good education or not has squat to do with the school and teacher (I have no data to back that up)... it has everything to do with home life and the importance of an education put in place by parents to their children. The other 30%, sure, school district, teachers, etc.

[shmenguin]

I think to say that private schools are so great because of the students. ..idk if I agree with that and wouldn't know how to quantify that without experimenting...?

wealthier parents=better students=better schools. there's plenty of data to back this up.

Ohh in that sense yes. I read it as if he was saying the kids in private school are smarter, which, now that I think about seems ridiculous.

well it's not a reach to say that there may be genetic advantages, intellectually, in coming from a successful, wealthy family.

[MWB]

Private schools, by and large, pick their students. They do not have to deal with behavior problems, special needs students, or parents that don't care. They deal with a group of engaged students and parents. Public schools deal with a much wider spectrum. Is it the teachers job to engage all the students? Absolutely. Is that always possible? No. When johnny was up until 4 keeping an eye on his grandpa who has Alzheimer's because his mom had "hair appointment," the job becomes a lot tougher.

As for getting everyone to university level... Why? Some people are not meant for that. Get them to love something that they can make a life of. If that's plumbing, great for everyone.

[Reveutopique]

The way we think about education needs to change imo. A child can aspire to be a plumber and that is good. He doesn't need to go to university to be a plumber.

I'm saying that education, in my view, should be such that this child who becomes a plumber is interested and has the tools and resources because he will have had the proper education to make advancements in the field of plumbing, to better the field and add to it as he goes. He doesn't necessarily need education to do that just as a doctor didn't necessarily need to go to med school to memorize the human body. But both can benefit in practice from going to school. The doctor can practice and do his residency. The plumber can do many experiments in a short amount of time, get input, etc.

And if the kid doesn't want to go to college then, that's fine, at least he will have the option.

It seems that many people are not going to always want to make advancements, some people just want to do. But that is what we know under the current system.

As for children incurring burdens due to lack of money, those problems concern things like health care, entitlements, after school programs, poverty etc.

[count2infinity]

That seems like more of a ramble than anything... what sort of advancements do you want do you want in the education system?

[dodint]

Less redundancy, for one.